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Missing Names
SilverDollar
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I just thought of something.  I went back and looked at some of the first posts and it said that the individual in question lied about his age to get into the AVG and entered without his family's permission because he was underage.  That doesn't make any sense.  As far as I know, recruitment was from the U.S. military and not from the general population.  The general population wouldn't have known about Chennault or his plans for China because that was top secret.  Again, the recruitment was from the U.S. military.  Then why would he have needed family permission to get into the AVG from one of the services?  He may have needed permission to get into the U.S. military but that would be a completely different story and he wouldn't have joined the military for the specific purpose of joining the AVG. The timing would be all wrong. There was something that was in China before the AVG but it was called the 14th VBS (Volunteer Bomber Squadron) which I believe was manned by mostly non Americans. The fact is it had absolutely no connection with the AVG except for the use of a similar blood chit. (Got that fact from "Last Hope: The Blood Chit Story" by Baldwin and McGarry).  On top of that, the 14th VBS worked from 37-38 which means if he were underage in 41, he wouldn't have been more than 11 or 12.  No way that's gonna happen. There's no way he could have been a member of that organization and been with the Panda Bears.  There's simply no connection.  I was giving our "esteemed member" the benefit of the doubt because that's the kind of guy I am.  This whole story is really smelling like yesterday's diapers on a hot August Day in Toungoo.   

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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Missing Names
mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Another thing is his claim that his grandfather left China and went back to the U.S. to fly with Delta.

I know of one person that did this, but it was John "Luke" Williamson. He was with Chennault's Air Corp demonstration team (Three Men on a Flying Trapeze) in the 30s, then with him again in China with the 14th VBS. He was never really in the AVG but helped train the Chinese pilots. He then went back to the states to work for Delta, but at the outbreak of the war, went back to China to help run the air transport. After the war, he went back to Delta.
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Missing Names
BillC
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Quote From : mayor October 31, 2010, 10:50 am
BillC........I'm coming around to your way of thinking. Something that bothered me was the claim that he had to lie about his age to get into the AVG. Well, if he was underage, I doubt if he was qualified enough in aviation, either as a pilot or otherwise, to get into the AVG as, if I recall correctly, they only took qualified people.


It is very simple.....all he needs to do is provide a name. Any name.
Excellent point guys. A tip of the hat for highlighting the fact that they couldn't have been active military based on the 'underage/family' claim in the story. Well reasoned. Makes it pretty hard to believe that this "grandfather" was in training in Texas before the AVG if he was underage. And if he was active military, there was no need to lie to the AVG. The diaper pail is full and needs changing.


Edited by BillC : October 31, 2010, 12:23 pm
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Missing Names
SilverDollar
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This all comes down to one thing and that is Stolen Valor.  This is a serious offense and an insult to the genuine individuals. 

Thanks for the encouragement Bill.  There was a time when I, like many of the uninitiated, didn't know the difference between the AVG and the 14th AF.  Not today.  As I mentioned in another thread, I had the good fortune to meet and converse at length with some of the original AVG members.  I'll provide names here:  George Bailey, crew chief whose son was one of my active duty patients (he brought his dad to one of his dental appointments), R.T. Smith- I was doing research on a particular collectible where the seller claimed it belonged to R.T. (it didn't) I still have the letter he sent me with his signature on it and  James Howard- flew Ding Hao, a P51B for the 8th AF.(I met him in '86 at an 8th AFHS convention).  Each of these men were extremely proud of what they did and they explained to me who the AVG really were and why they were ticked off whenever a 14th AF veteran called himself a Flying Tiger.  They were pretty emphatic about it, too.   

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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Missing Names
hawkadoodle
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First off I want to appoligize for the wild goose chase. I understand where you are coming from and I would never want to sulley the name of the avg or any other group. The info about Pappy was from a link    About the flying tigers. My grandfather turns 90 tomorrow. So I do not believe he joined the avg underage. I believe it was the service. I have the greatest respect for all who have served our country! This started as a mission to find out more about the flying tigers and when my grandfather asked about a few people that he was wondering if they were dead or alive. I did not mean to cause such a mess. I am looking into the leads mayor sent and the photo book. I find it interesting about Delta. (I do somewhere have a picture of him in uniform) I  know that there is more to his back story than I know. But I will not post more till I can get firm information that you can help me with. I would appreciate if you allow me to ask questions to help me get barrings and direction. Again I understand your being protective and I don't blame you. If you have any other constructive directions or suggestions I would appreciate it. Thank you again. 
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Missing Names
hawkadoodle
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I will also go back to find the link with the story about " pappy" flying under a different name first. It was very interesting and I would love to know if that was a bunch of hooey.
I am also looking for the story put out by life magazine " soldiers of fortune" that tells the story of the flying tigers.
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Missing Names
hawkadoodle
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Silverdolllar, where abouts are you located?
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Missing Names
aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
A compliment also to mayor & Silver Dollar for their excellent sleuthing......

#1 this person was supposedly a pilot in the AVG.  The fact is that,  for most American  pilots, there was no short cut to becoming a pilot.  At least, in the Army Air Corps you had Primary, Basic and finally Advanced Flight Training....it took time.  Also, the AVG recruits were already flying.  R.T. Smith & P.J. Greene were flight instructors at Randolph Field.  Approx. 8 P-40 pilots came from Mitchel & Selfridge Fields.  And for the Navy & Marine pilots you also had qualif. time. 

Bottom line, the youngest AVG (I believe) is Chuck Baisden.  At 89 or 90,
subtract 69 (2010 - 1941).....you're looking at someone who was approx. 19-20 when he joined the AVG.  True, the training sequence was different between pilots and ground crew.....but the numbers provide proof that the underage story just set off my BS detector!


Edited by aaatripp : October 31, 2010, 10:45 pm

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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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Missing Names
mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Well, I retired from Delta in '05 and I have a history book about them and there's a short bit about "Luke" Williamson in there and his service with Chennault and with Delta.

When I found this out, I contacted the relatives of Williamson, from a link on here, I believe and sent them some of the pictures out of the Delta book.
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Missing Names
BillC
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Hey there hawk etc......Your responses don't address any of the inconsistencies. You have yet to provide the name of your alleged 'grandfather". Everyone on this website knows the name of their grandfather. Please provide yours.
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Missing Names
BillC
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Hellooooooooooooooo doodle. We anxiously await your reply so that we can confirm your "grandfather's" rightful place in AVG history. We are breathless. Please provide that name. Surely, he had one.
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Missing Names
BillC
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Doodle, Just to let you know...I have forwarded this topic to Colonel Jack Bond, the brother of the late Major General Charles Bond, for his take on this 'story'. Your ducks need to start quacking.


Edited by BillC : November 1, 2010, 2:42 am
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Missing Names
chuckbaisden
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;-D
Not that it makes that  much difference, Frank Losonsky is the  youngest of the AVG
(1941-1942).  I signed my CAMCO contract in April 1941 at the age of 19.

Chuck Baisden
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Missing Names
hawkadoodle
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" Boyington was a heavy drinker, through nights that would end with the challenge: “I’ll wrestle anybody in the crowd!” He’d grown up believing his stepfather to be his natural parent, and he graduated from the University of Washington, married, and became a draftsman at Boeing Aircraft under the name of Hallenbeck. When he learned his birth name, he seized the chance to start anew as a bachelor and an aviation cadet. (Navy and marine pilots couldn’t marry for two years after earning their gold wings.) The lie had since caught up with him, and he was required to report each month on how he’d distributed his salary among those with a claim on it, including his ex-wife and three children. "
This what one of the things I had read about Boyington using a different name.  It was from "Flying Tigers" by Daniel Ford "too good to be true"
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Missing Names
SilverDollar
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Well, there's the first booboo.  I must tell you, hawk, that the name Daniel Ford is sort of anathema on this forum but that's in the past and somewhat complicated.  His book is fraught with errors and fabrications to say the least.  The one thing I know is true is the fact that Boyingtom was definitely a heavy drinker and loved to fight no matter who was involved.  That fact I heard from an original AVG member. 

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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