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 Missing Names, AVG man not 14th (81 Replies, Read 272548 times)
hawkadoodle
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My Grandfather was a Panda and he asked about several others I can't find any of the names including his. He says he was AVG never went to the 14th he left July 1942 and then flew or Delta. the Names he asked about were Bob Oconnell, Ernest Gant, Jack Fry, Robert Parks. I can't find them on any roster.
He was a wing man and remembers Tex well. Please help if you can.

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:36 pm
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chuckbaisden
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:??:

Might be able to help if I knew your grandfathers name ????

Chuck Baisden
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hawkadoodle
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Long Story Short, I believe he flew under the name Robert (Bob) O'Connoll (my spelling could be off) He knew Jack Newkirk and told me about the day he passed.
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BillC
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None of those men were AVG members. Tex Hill was one of the pilots that stayed on with the CATF and the later 14th AF after the AVG disbanded on July 4, 1942. He may have known Tex from the later units. I'm somewhat confused though, you mention that your grandfather was Robert O'Connell, but you also say that he asked about 'Robert O'Connell'....? Can you clarify his name? If he was in the AVG his name would appear on the master list of original members, whether he completed his 1 year contract or not.
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hawkadoodle
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One of the reason's for asking is when I say he flew under his name, My grand father joined the AVG without family permission and slightly underage. He took the name of another guy  he was with to hide from the family (and I'm sure sneak in underage) He searved till July 19th 1942. He said Bissell(sp?) asked him to stay on for the 14th but he said no.  I remember pictures when I was younger of him and some other guys in front of a p40? over there. (amoung other pictures) He's never been extremely forth coming with me before but now he's talking about it more and asking my help to find stuff. I'm trying to help with his request.  he was AVG & Panda.
I appreciate all your help.


Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:47 pm
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BillC
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Well.....there was a "Moose' Moss that was an original member of the AVG. If you could provide some further information about his post-war activities, I'm sure that someone could confirm his being a member of the AVG.
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ForumAdmin
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There were only two members of the AVG with the last name Moss, neither of whom is still living.

Jo Neal
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hawkadoodle
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He tells me the person whose name he used for so many years passed away many years ago. I'm going to speak with him tomorrow and see what else he will share with me. I know he is now more upset about the fact that the medals he earned have someone elses name attached instead of his real one. At the time I know kids don't think that far into the future.
I have a bracelet made from his wings. I would love to get clear all I can for him.  Thank you to everyone for helping! I will try to get more info from him to help our cause :)

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:40 pm
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hawkadoodle
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I spoke with My grand pa, Jack Newkirk brought him in under an assumed name and the few guys that knew were supposed to keep it hush hush that even if he died over there it wouldn't have been "him" He said some of the guys knew once he was there for a while and kept it quiet. 

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:45 pm
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chuckbaisden
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:??:
Hawkadoodle,

By chance, I wonder if you know where and when the  real AVG pilot Moose Moss died and where is he buried?

I am getting more and more confused and the ice is getting thin.

Chuck Baisden
3rd Sqdn AVG 1941-42
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BillC
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A further head scratcher...is why none of the names he asked about were AVG members? If he did not stay on with the CATF after the AVG disbanded, he wouldn't have known the members of the later groups that replaced the AVG, so we must assume he wasn't asking about them. Also, Bissell couldn't have asked him to stay on with the 14th AF...it didn't exist...until about 9-10 months after the AVG disbanded. The China Air Task Force was the initial replacement unit for the AVG. I never heard of anyone 'recruiting' AVG members other than General Chennault and the original recruiters that visited the various bases around the US.  I don't know how he could have used Moose Moss' name since Moose was in the AVG the entire time. His contract was not 'empty' or 'open' for anyone to fill. The other 'Moss' in the group was Ken Moss, a meteorologist, and he also completed his contract. There seem to be a number of inconsistencies that don't add up. Some wires must be crossed somewhere.


Edited by BillC : October 18, 2010, 4:52 pm
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hawkadoodle
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He said he was with the AVG since inseption.  He talked about the CATF but he said he left the service July 19th 1942. ( He told me the AVG dibanded earlier. He gave me the date but I forgot to write it down. 
was there a Henry Gilbert that died in a landing accident over there?
I'm getting all this info by phone but he said he would drag out some old pics he has and send them to me to maybe help clarify. One of the pictures has several of the guys, my grandfather and a couple of chinese men with them in the picture.
thanks again and sorry if its getting confusing I'm hoping it all gets straight in the end.  :)

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:49 pm
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hawkadoodle
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Other names he asked about Arvid Olsen, Lewis Hoffman ( he told me he died in action at the age of 43?)  somebody Oley (ok my spelling doesn't look right on that one) I have to check my notes I know he gave me more names. 
Thanks

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:50 pm
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BillC
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Odd that he would ask about those particular AVG names. None of them were in the squadron that he claims to have been in. One would think that several names from 'his' squadron would first come to mind. A question: Was he trained in Texas  specifically in preparation for the AVG mission in China?


Edited by BillC : October 19, 2010, 9:34 am
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hawkadoodle
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Hi Bill,
Yes I believe so.  I keep trying to compile info based on short phone conversations.  It was my mistake on the 14th division, I just assumed that was the division that came after the AVG as that is the one mentioned here the most as an alternitive if you weren't AVG. (he corrected me too LOL )
I again assumed that those names were associated with the same squad.  I've wrote down others but are not near my notes at the moment.  (I need to really stop assuming :) ) Were the squads seperate from one another? or did you have contact?
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BillC
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No training for China was done stateside. Members were recruited from active members of the military. Training 'for' China was done 'in' China personally by Gen. Chennault. The squadron that you refer to was comprised of virtually all Navy fliers. Was your grandfather a Navy pilot? If so, where in Texas did he get his wings? Kelly or Randolph Field?


Edited by BillC : October 19, 2010, 2:01 pm
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hawkadoodle
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Good question, I will ask exactly where and what for. As I said I don't know if the training was for joining the AVG or if it was part of something else.
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BillC
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When one claims to be part of one of the most legendary units in American military history...it's advisable to have one's ducks in a row.


Edited by BillC : October 20, 2010, 12:13 am
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chuckbaisden
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:xd: HOW TRUE

CHUCK BAISDEN
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hawkadoodle
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Hi Bill,
I'm the one without the ducks lol. When I speak to my grandfather, I am trying to get both family history and his personal history so I get it confused sometimes. I lost my mom just a few months ago and he is the last historian of our family. So I am trying to catch up on a lifetime before I lose him too.
I do know in my heart that he was there. Its just taking me a little time to get the story straight. I appreciate your patience and everyone else's plus all the help! I know he does too.
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hawkadoodle
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question, what was CBI?
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aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
It stands for:  China Burma India Theater of Operations
The Commanding Officer was Gen. Joseph Stillwell.

Also, there was European TO (ETO) (Eisenhower), Mediterranean TO, Central Pacific TO (Nimitz), SW Pacific Operational Area (MacArthur).  Normally it was a large regional area under a unified commander.


Edited by aaatripp : October 20, 2010, 12:37 pm

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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, Historian
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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hawkadoodle
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Thank you Tripp,
That makes sense he speaks of going to ( I think Rangoon) now I know why I think I've heard him mention Stillwell in his stories. I'm working on the ducks :angel: LOL

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:52 pm
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hawkadoodle
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Me again gentlemen,
I got to talk to grandpa for about 5mins today. (for got to ask about Kelly) He did tell me he was on the base in Lakewood TX but no he did not train here for the AVG he was recruited there and then he took a ship to burma to train. He went to Rangoon ? and/or Tangu (Tungu) maybe (bad connection)  joining the British. 
He asked me to ask about PJ Green who went to the 3rd squad I appreciate you letting me add things as I get them. I'm a little scattered but getting there. :)
Thanks again

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:54 pm
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BillC
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Would you mind pulling on the other leg  for awhile...so as to keep them even.
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hawkadoodle
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lol what did I do now?
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hawkadoodle
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I am trying my best. and he is soon to be 91 (god bless him he is still sharper than me though :P )
Trust me this is frustrating for me too :)

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 20, 2010, 11:01 pm
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hawkadoodle
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Guys in all seriousness, please explain my mistakes,
my grandfather is very happy to have me talking with people who know people he knew or at least know what may have happened to them. ( I don't think he'd be deliberately trying to make things up knowing that I'm talking to you) It has gotten him talking more than I ever remember about anything and sharing "family secrets" that were never allowed to be told. My Greatgrandfather died in my arms when I was a child taking many of the secrets with him. Now with my grandpa sharing and asking questions (even if you laugh at me) I have been able to get him to open up.  (I also have been able to verify alot through old draft records)
Please feel free to laugh at me. but please let me in on the joke :)
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ForumAdmin
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Instead of giving us names and places he "remembers" let's start with who he really is. 
What is his real name?  If it is Moss, who are your parents?
Where does he live and what name does he use?
What branch of service was he in originally?
You say he was active in the VA, so where/how did he earn veteran status?
If he was an AVG member, what position did he hold?
If he was underage when he "joined" the AVG, how old was he?
Where was he when Jack Newkirk supposedly "signed him up?"

Start with those answers and we'll go from there.



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hawkadoodle
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Thank you for the direct questions. That's very helpful. Do you want my parents or his? I know it was his father and another man that introduced him to Newkirk. I will ask the name again. Thank you again.
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BillC
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A wild story that doesn't pass the smell test, vague and evasive responses, claims that can't be verified, and an apparent unwillingness to provide specific information beyond disjointed bits and pieces just doesn't indicate someone on the up an up. If this was legitimate, one would take more time than a 5 minute phone call and get ALL the claimed facts organized ....and have their "notes" at hand to answer any and ALL questions...many which have yet gone unanswered. By all appearances...a charade.


Edited by BillC : October 22, 2010, 12:28 pm
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BillC
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I challenge you to contact one of the moderators with your grandfather's phone number. Let one of them contact him and we'll soon find out what's real and what isn't.
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hawkadoodle
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I have no problem having one of you contact him. I will ask his permission first. But I don't think it will be a problem. The 5 min phone calls are mine not his and noone is trying to be deliberately evasive. It is my fault for not gathering all the information before beginning to post, I just got so excited in finding you guys on line, I just began posting as I spoke with him. ( I thought this would be easy. LOL )  I know Chuck was over there with the 3rd? squad( I found that from you all mentioning his book) as I know some of the guys my grand pa has mentioned to me were. (Chuck was a pretty Handsome guy back then too. but thats got nothing to do with this,  just a side bar. LOL) Are any of the moderators AVG or are they family Historians? ( sorry  I don't know the moderator's backgrounds) Any Panda's that might know him directly if they talk? I have been trying to reach him all day but haven't been able to. Again I will be more than happy to have one of you guys call him and as I said I'm sure he'd appreciate it to. 

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 4:56 pm
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hawkadoodle
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and Bill you can be snippy with me, not him, he's trying his best to get things across to me but I can be scattered in my questions. not really knowing what to ask I'm all over the place. Someone this morning gave me some direct questions to ask and that wil make things easier for me when I talk to him, and answer you. Plus if/when somebody from your group talks to him that I'm sure will help alot. Thank you again

Edited by hawkadoodle : October 22, 2010, 3:50 pm
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BillC
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I look forward to having this 'story' clarified. I'm sure an interview by someone who was actually there will confirm things...one way or another. Make a believer out of me. BTW, anyone who was actually in the 2nd squadron would know to call it by it's correct nickname, "The Panda Bears". Just one more inconsistency that adds to the lack of credibility.


Edited by BillC : October 22, 2010, 11:31 pm
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hawkadoodle
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Hi Bill, he as only ever referred to his squad as the pandas or panda bears, or the 3rd as the hell's angels etc.. I thought he was making "those" up. I had never heard of them when my son's teacher taught about the flying tigers. When my grandpa referred to your 3 original groups I just chuckled to myself thinking he was telling stories. Especially since when my son mentioned them to his teacher he said he knew of "no such thing"
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BillC
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Put one of the moderators in touch with your grandfather. Your responses have not clarified anything. If anything, they just muddy the waters further. Put him in touch with one of the moderators. Nothing else will do. No amount of snippets or corrections, to try to conform the story to the latest post, accomplish anything of a positive nature. If you want to prove your/his story...PUT HIM IN TOUCH WITH THE MODERATORS. If he/you are legit...one phone call with them can prove it. Anything less is a waste of time.


Edited by BillC : October 23, 2010, 11:50 am
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hawkadoodle
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As I asked before what moderator and how?
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hawkadoodle
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ps if you do go to my very first post you will notice I ask about the Pandas and not something else.
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BillC
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Index page, you have to go to that page before you get here. Under  both 'Generals' & 'Public Discussion', 3 moderators are listed. E-mail the phone number...and his name, if you have decided on one.


Edited by BillC : October 23, 2010, 9:51 pm
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BillC
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Quote From : hawkadoodle October 23, 2010, 7:38 pm
ps if you do go to my very first post you will notice I ask about the Pandas and not something else.
??????????....and you were informed that none of those men, including the different names of your grandfather were in the AVG. This is pointless, like a dog chasing it's tail. You've provided no concrete, confirm-able information to back your story, so let your 'grandfather' tell the tale to an authority on the AVG and see if 'he' can provide a clear and concise telling of the "phantom" member of the AVG. There is nothing more to be said.


Edited by BillC : October 23, 2010, 10:23 pm
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BenL
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Hawkadoodle,
I know that you are trying to do this for your grandfather. Try doing a search of Robert Moose Moss on google and read through the results, see if any of this apply to your grandfather. You can also go to your local library and request a copy of "The Pictorial History of the Flying Tigers" By Larry Pistole, there are plenty of pictures of Moose Moss and see if they resemble your grandfather. Please let us know what you can find out.
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mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Please, someone put a muzzle on BillC ;-D


@hawkadoodle.........you'll have to excuse some of the responses.......there have probably been more vets that have claimed to have been in the AVG than any other unit in WWII. Many in the AAF that came to be in the China Task Force and were not original AVG, claimed to be "Flying Tigers" as well.

I think the best idea is to have your grandfather talk to one of the moderators, here and get the info straight from him. Any one of them will be able to help you. In this day and age, it's very important to get the correct oral histories from the vets of WWII as they are leaving us, fast.
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BillC
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Yes...Please someone muzzle me...to keep me from standing up for the AVG...to protect their integrity...from someone who puts forth a crazy story....then feels the need to edit most of their posts/claims...."hawkadoodle" provided NOTHING in the way of facts to back up the bizarre story that was being told...Often the forum encounters well meaning people who don't understand the difference between the ORIGINAL Flying Tigers...and their relative who was in one of the later units. Not a problem....But when someone claims to have been an original member of the AVG...and has NOTHING to back it up....EXCUSE ME... for being skeptical. If 'hawkadoodle's' grandfather was a LEGITIMATE member of the AVG...it would be a simple matter to provide the proof. The FACT that this person has NOT provided one piece of evidence to back their story....and IN FACT....has NOT made any effort to contact a moderator, so that his/her 'grandfather' can provide his bona fides...speaks louder than ANYTHING that I can say.........I am hopeful that the moderators will 'lock' this waste of time.


Edited by BillC : October 30, 2010, 1:29 am
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chuckbaisden
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:xd:

Well said.

Chuck Baisden
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aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
All----please note that calls to "grandfather" have ceased for over a week and I now doubt that the real story will ever emerge.  Maybe the moderators should, mercifully, pull the plug on this.

Any reasonable person would have provided some verifiable info.


Edited by aaatripp : October 30, 2010, 9:09 am

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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, Historian
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mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Well, BillC, since you aren't one of the moderators, who appointed you as our guard dog?

If this turns out to be a legitimate request, you'll be duly apologetic, I would imagine.

If it isn't, just ignore it.....simple as that....no one hurt, either way.

Personal histories, as they get passed down, over the years, get muddled. In my own case, for years, everyone thought my Grandfather was with Teddy Roosevelt and the Rough Riders in the Spanish American War. Well turns out he wasn't.......wasn't even in the Spanish American War......but in the Phillipines during the Phillipine Insurrection.

Nothing against you, Bill......I understand where you're coming from......I just thought it was a little heavy handed.
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SilverDollar
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  :-x I'm having trouble with my editing here.  Hang on, folks.

Edited by SilverDollar : October 30, 2010, 11:21 am

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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BillC
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The story of this 'grandfather' made no sense from the beginning, but we humored them in an attempt to discover if this was just someone who had gotten their wires crossed. It soon became apparent that this was just a hoax. The story changed with every post as one contradiction after another was pointed out. I'm still not sure what the grandfather's name was supposed to be! At one point, they were claiming he used Moose Moss' name. A difficult claim to swallow, as Moose was in the AVG the entire time. A contradiction never explained. He was 'asked by Bissell' to stay on with the 14th, a unit that didn't exist till almost a year later. He supposedly left the AVG after disbanding and went back to the states, yet he was also in the CBI and knew Stillwell, and worked for CAMCO. He was supposed to have lied about his name and age, because of his family, to get into the AVG, but we were told that his father introduced him to Jack Newkirk, who 'brought' him into the AVG under an assumed name.  He was to have asked about Arvid Olsen...and "somebody" Oley. Arvid and Oley are one in the same person. Grandfather said he was 'a Panda'. He would have known to call the 2nd squadron Panda Bears. There were many contradictions as the story went on, and many questions that went unanswered.  A number of the claims were later redacted without explanation. When challenged by one of the moderators and myself to provide some kind of proof, none was forthcoming. As you can see, once evidence of some sort was requested, the story teller disappeared....As far as being a guard dog. I offer no apologies for wanting to protect the memory, history, and service of the AVG. All too soon, it will be left only to the following generation to preserve the AVG history. Honest inquiries are always dealt with in a respectful manner, as was this one...initially, till it became clear that there likely was no grandfather, just someone playing games.


Edited by BillC : October 30, 2010, 10:22 am
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hawkadoodle
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I have not dissapeared, it was not a hoax. My grandfather has been at the VA hospital sitting with a dying friend ( not that bill will believe me) and I have not posted much else trying to "get my ducks in a row" as was stated. Before posting anything else. I have greatly appreciated the help and directions to search in (ie. The books and pictures) so it may take me sometime, but I am around. I just didn't want to be attacked anymore for my mistakes. I understand wanting to protect the integrity of the original group and it's stories but there is always a chance that there are undiscovered ones. Didn't " pappy" b. Fly under another name for awhile?! It came out later because of the type of person he was. So you just never know. I'm still here, and a moderator will be contacted eventually. In the mean time anyone with additional suggestions on how to find information and pictures woul be really appreciated.
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hawkadoodle
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Ps it is not as "simple" as you think
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SilverDollar
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Quote From : mayor October 30, 2010, 8:44 am
Well, BillC, since you aren't one of the moderators, who appointed you as our guard dog?

.
Now I think I have it right. 

Here's the scoop on that.  Bill is definitely a member in good standing of this group and more than understands the purpose of this site. His extensive knowlege of the AVG history is unrefutable.  Any member in good standing in this group, moderator or not has the right and especially the responsibility to ensure that the history this site is concerned with never, ever becomes prey for the revisionists to do their damage.  if Bill for whatever reason can't act as guard dog, then I'll step up and do the same.  It's up to the following generations to make sure the AVG history doesn't get revised and turned to garbage.  That's all we're doing.  Nuff said.

Edited by SilverDollar : October 30, 2010, 11:36 am

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Oh, you mean the history I was relating about Gen. Scott on another thread, that I got from his own writings, that people said I was wrong about? THAT kind of history?
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BillC
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It's a shame our VA hospitals don't have telephones. Always some impediment. The check's in the mail.


Edited by BillC : October 30, 2010, 12:14 pm
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SilverDollar
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Quote From : mayor October 30, 2010, 11:41 am
Oh, you mean the history I was relating about Gen. Scott on another thread, that I got from his own writings, that people said I was wrong about? THAT kind of history?


Wha??? I wasn't referring to anything you said, mayor.  I also read God is My Copilot.  I didn't think you were wrong about Gen Scott.  He may be a huge story teller but he's no liar.  Sometimes it takes a bit of time and effort to make sure all the facts right.  That's all the members were attempting to do with all their suggestions.  It just wasn't happening. 

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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Missing Names
hawkadoodle
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Really Bill? Really?
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BillC
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Really. We still don't even have a name to investigate...not even a name. Surely, you must know his name. Was that reply meant to explain all the contradictions that continue to go unanswered?


Edited by BillC : October 30, 2010, 9:50 pm
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BillC
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                                      SilverDollar, Thanks for the kind words. While I probably know more than the average person about the AVG, there are those whose knowledge easily surpasses mine...like Chuck Baisden and Frank Losonsky...the real guys that were there...and the spouses of  AVG members like Jo Neal and Lydia Rossi...and other forum members like AVGBOB, who helped publish several of the autobiographies by AVG members. Glad to hear that you are willing to stand by the AVG. I don't think you'll ever regret it.


Edited by BillC : October 30, 2010, 10:38 pm
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BillC
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Quote From : hawkadoodle October 30, 2010, 10:54 am
I have not dissapeared, it was not a hoax. My grandfather has been at the VA hospital sitting with a dying friend ( not that bill will believe me) and I have not posted much else trying to "get my ducks in a row" as was stated. Before posting anything else. I have greatly appreciated the help and directions to search in (ie. The books and pictures) so it may take me sometime, but I am around. I just didn't want to be attacked anymore for my mistakes. I understand wanting to protect the integrity of the original group and it's stories but there is always a chance that there are undiscovered ones. Didn't " pappy" b. Fly under another name for awhile?! It came out later because of the type of person he was. So you just never know. I'm still here, and a moderator will be contacted eventually. In the mean time anyone with additional suggestions on how to find information and pictures woul be really appreciated.
Greg "Pappy" Boyington never flew under another name that I heard of. Pure fiction. A straw to grasp on to. We don't 'attack' people for honest  mistakes. But we don't swallow fairy tales without real evidence. Do you understand how small a group the AVG was? Someone just doesn't "hide" there, unknown to the other members. This wasn't the 14th AF with 15-20k members.  Again...if you want to have any credibility, provide this 'grandfather's' name and the name that you say that he used in the AVG. That name has to be on the AVG roles. Research can begin at that point to verify your claims. If you cannot provide such a basic piece of information you will not be taken seriously and are just wasting our time.
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mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
BillC........I'm coming around to your way of thinking. Something that bothered me was the claim that he had to lie about his age to get into the AVG. Well, if he was underage, I doubt if he was qualified enough in aviation, either as a pilot or otherwise, to get into the AVG as, if I recall correctly, they only took qualified people.


It is very simple.....all he needs to do is provide a name. Any name.
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SilverDollar
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I just thought of something.  I went back and looked at some of the first posts and it said that the individual in question lied about his age to get into the AVG and entered without his family's permission because he was underage.  That doesn't make any sense.  As far as I know, recruitment was from the U.S. military and not from the general population.  The general population wouldn't have known about Chennault or his plans for China because that was top secret.  Again, the recruitment was from the U.S. military.  Then why would he have needed family permission to get into the AVG from one of the services?  He may have needed permission to get into the U.S. military but that would be a completely different story and he wouldn't have joined the military for the specific purpose of joining the AVG. The timing would be all wrong. There was something that was in China before the AVG but it was called the 14th VBS (Volunteer Bomber Squadron) which I believe was manned by mostly non Americans. The fact is it had absolutely no connection with the AVG except for the use of a similar blood chit. (Got that fact from "Last Hope: The Blood Chit Story" by Baldwin and McGarry).  On top of that, the 14th VBS worked from 37-38 which means if he were underage in 41, he wouldn't have been more than 11 or 12.  No way that's gonna happen. There's no way he could have been a member of that organization and been with the Panda Bears.  There's simply no connection.  I was giving our "esteemed member" the benefit of the doubt because that's the kind of guy I am.  This whole story is really smelling like yesterday's diapers on a hot August Day in Toungoo.   

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Another thing is his claim that his grandfather left China and went back to the U.S. to fly with Delta.

I know of one person that did this, but it was John "Luke" Williamson. He was with Chennault's Air Corp demonstration team (Three Men on a Flying Trapeze) in the 30s, then with him again in China with the 14th VBS. He was never really in the AVG but helped train the Chinese pilots. He then went back to the states to work for Delta, but at the outbreak of the war, went back to China to help run the air transport. After the war, he went back to Delta.
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BillC
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Quote From : mayor October 31, 2010, 9:50 am
BillC........I'm coming around to your way of thinking. Something that bothered me was the claim that he had to lie about his age to get into the AVG. Well, if he was underage, I doubt if he was qualified enough in aviation, either as a pilot or otherwise, to get into the AVG as, if I recall correctly, they only took qualified people.


It is very simple.....all he needs to do is provide a name. Any name.
Excellent point guys. A tip of the hat for highlighting the fact that they couldn't have been active military based on the 'underage/family' claim in the story. Well reasoned. Makes it pretty hard to believe that this "grandfather" was in training in Texas before the AVG if he was underage. And if he was active military, there was no need to lie to the AVG. The diaper pail is full and needs changing.


Edited by BillC : October 31, 2010, 11:23 am
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SilverDollar
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This all comes down to one thing and that is Stolen Valor.  This is a serious offense and an insult to the genuine individuals. 

Thanks for the encouragement Bill.  There was a time when I, like many of the uninitiated, didn't know the difference between the AVG and the 14th AF.  Not today.  As I mentioned in another thread, I had the good fortune to meet and converse at length with some of the original AVG members.  I'll provide names here:  George Bailey, crew chief whose son was one of my active duty patients (he brought his dad to one of his dental appointments), R.T. Smith- I was doing research on a particular collectible where the seller claimed it belonged to R.T. (it didn't) I still have the letter he sent me with his signature on it and  James Howard- flew Ding Hao, a P51B for the 8th AF.(I met him in '86 at an 8th AFHS convention).  Each of these men were extremely proud of what they did and they explained to me who the AVG really were and why they were ticked off whenever a 14th AF veteran called himself a Flying Tiger.  They were pretty emphatic about it, too.   

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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hawkadoodle
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First off I want to appoligize for the wild goose chase. I understand where you are coming from and I would never want to sulley the name of the avg or any other group. The info about Pappy was from a link    About the flying tigers. My grandfather turns 90 tomorrow. So I do not believe he joined the avg underage. I believe it was the service. I have the greatest respect for all who have served our country! This started as a mission to find out more about the flying tigers and when my grandfather asked about a few people that he was wondering if they were dead or alive. I did not mean to cause such a mess. I am looking into the leads mayor sent and the photo book. I find it interesting about Delta. (I do somewhere have a picture of him in uniform) I  know that there is more to his back story than I know. But I will not post more till I can get firm information that you can help me with. I would appreciate if you allow me to ask questions to help me get barrings and direction. Again I understand your being protective and I don't blame you. If you have any other constructive directions or suggestions I would appreciate it. Thank you again. 
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hawkadoodle
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I will also go back to find the link with the story about " pappy" flying under a different name first. It was very interesting and I would love to know if that was a bunch of hooey.
I am also looking for the story put out by life magazine " soldiers of fortune" that tells the story of the flying tigers.
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hawkadoodle
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Silverdolllar, where abouts are you located?
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aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
A compliment also to mayor & Silver Dollar for their excellent sleuthing......

#1 this person was supposedly a pilot in the AVG.  The fact is that,  for most American  pilots, there was no short cut to becoming a pilot.  At least, in the Army Air Corps you had Primary, Basic and finally Advanced Flight Training....it took time.  Also, the AVG recruits were already flying.  R.T. Smith & P.J. Greene were flight instructors at Randolph Field.  Approx. 8 P-40 pilots came from Mitchel & Selfridge Fields.  And for the Navy & Marine pilots you also had qualif. time. 

Bottom line, the youngest AVG (I believe) is Chuck Baisden.  At 89 or 90,
subtract 69 (2010 - 1941).....you're looking at someone who was approx. 19-20 when he joined the AVG.  True, the training sequence was different between pilots and ground crew.....but the numbers provide proof that the underage story just set off my BS detector!


Edited by aaatripp : October 31, 2010, 9:45 pm

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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, Historian
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Well, I retired from Delta in '05 and I have a history book about them and there's a short bit about "Luke" Williamson in there and his service with Chennault and with Delta.

When I found this out, I contacted the relatives of Williamson, from a link on here, I believe and sent them some of the pictures out of the Delta book.
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BillC
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Hey there hawk etc......Your responses don't address any of the inconsistencies. You have yet to provide the name of your alleged 'grandfather". Everyone on this website knows the name of their grandfather. Please provide yours.
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BillC
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Hellooooooooooooooo doodle. We anxiously await your reply so that we can confirm your "grandfather's" rightful place in AVG history. We are breathless. Please provide that name. Surely, he had one.
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BillC
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Doodle, Just to let you know...I have forwarded this topic to Colonel Jack Bond, the brother of the late Major General Charles Bond, for his take on this 'story'. Your ducks need to start quacking.


Edited by BillC : November 1, 2010, 1:42 am
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chuckbaisden
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;-D
Not that it makes that  much difference, Frank Losonsky is the  youngest of the AVG
(1941-1942).  I signed my CAMCO contract in April 1941 at the age of 19.

Chuck Baisden
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hawkadoodle
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" Boyington was a heavy drinker, through nights that would end with the challenge: “I’ll wrestle anybody in the crowd!” He’d grown up believing his stepfather to be his natural parent, and he graduated from the University of Washington, married, and became a draftsman at Boeing Aircraft under the name of Hallenbeck. When he learned his birth name, he seized the chance to start anew as a bachelor and an aviation cadet. (Navy and marine pilots couldn’t marry for two years after earning their gold wings.) The lie had since caught up with him, and he was required to report each month on how he’d distributed his salary among those with a claim on it, including his ex-wife and three children. "
This what one of the things I had read about Boyington using a different name.  It was from "Flying Tigers" by Daniel Ford "too good to be true"
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SilverDollar
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Well, there's the first booboo.  I must tell you, hawk, that the name Daniel Ford is sort of anathema on this forum but that's in the past and somewhat complicated.  His book is fraught with errors and fabrications to say the least.  The one thing I know is true is the fact that Boyingtom was definitely a heavy drinker and loved to fight no matter who was involved.  That fact I heard from an original AVG member. 

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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hawkadoodle
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Thank you Silver, I had no idea that he was persona non grata so to speak. That was one of the first books I had come across to read. ( it was suggested by a teacher at my daughter's school)
I was also reading about a group of tuskeege men that flew for the tigers. Is that true or another stretch of an author's poetic license?
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BillC
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The name(s) please. You keep ignoring this simplest of requests. Going off on another tangent appears as just yet another delaying tactic. What's the problem with providing his name???  If you WILL NOT provide the name of your "grandfather", then we've wasted enough time on this fantasy and I would ask that the moderators just go ahead and put and end to this farce and lock the thread. This nonsense has gone on far too long without any pertinent responses by the claimant.


Edited by BillC : November 1, 2010, 8:29 pm
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SilverDollar
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I fell across that book by accident myself and when I announced I was reading it here, they told me the facts.  I can't stand a history book where I can't trust the info in it.  It simply becomes a novel. 

I never saw anything in print where any of the Tuskegee airmen ever went to the Pacific.  They flew against the German pilots and not the Japanese.  The one thing they did have in common with the AVG was that they did fly P40's initially but that was it.  The first group of Tuskegee airman finished flight training in Mar 42, but nothing indicates that mobilized until after July 42. 

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Sometimes a handful of patience is worth more than a truckload of brains. Author unknown.  Found in a fortune cookie and that's the honest truth.
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BillC
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Colonel Bond concurs that this story is a steaming pile........with absolutely no credibility. It's fate should be obvious.
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hawkadoodle
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Bill,
I'm trying my best, apparently, I have also become persona non grata. My main goal was to try to get answers to questions myself. (many went unanswered) plus find out more about The Fighting Tigers from the men who really know! Just as Silver and Mayor have started to give me some direction which has been helpful you now choose to have me shut out. (I don't know if thats what you are truly trying to do but thats what it feels like) I thank you for contacting the Colonel but based on the information you would have been able to give him, I would have agreed with him.
Mayor mentions having a book about Delta that has pictures, how far does it go back? Does it have any pictures from the 40's?
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ForumAdmin
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I believe this has gone on too long and too far off the original topic.

Hawkadoodle, we can give you answers to your original questions if you will just give us your grandfather's name. 

If you choose to ignore that basic request, we will need to end this unproductive "discussion" and move on to other things.

Jo Neal
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hawkadoodle
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I have one question, if I give you names dates etc that points to who he is, and it is found out that he flew under an assumed name, what would happen to him now?
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