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 Markings question (9 Replies, Read 15560 times)
mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Got a question on the markings used on the AVG P-40Cs and Es. Someone out there has a restored P-40E (I believe) but I'm not sure who it is. Has the normal markings of a Flying Tigers P-40, EXCEPT, under the port wing it says ARMY. Haven't seen the underside of the other wing, yet.


Were there some aircraft that might have been marked this way?

Edited by mayor : May 5, 2014, 6:16 pm
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Markings question
aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
There are numerous key markings on the P40-B and E models of the AVG to distinguish them from others, namely:


1.  The 12-pointed blue & white Chinese Air Force rondel on each wing, the P-8100 numbers stenciled in white on the tail (for only the 100 P40-Bs shipped from Curtiss-Wright/New York, starting with 8101.  Note:  P-8157 was the one where the wing assembly crate was dropped overboard, recovered and used for spare parts).

2.  Of course, the Disney AVG logo of the winged Tiger & blue Victory V along with the appropriate squadron insignia and the group shark-mouth insignia.

3.  Squadron numbers painted on the fuselage (1st Sqdn - 1-33, 2nd Sqdn - 34-67, 3rd Sqdn - 68-99).  The first 33 E-model replacements were 101-134.

4.  Empenage colored stripes for AVG squadron identifiers (1st - white, 2nd - blue, 3rd - red).

5.  P40-Bs:  iron ring gunsights mounted on the nose and no bomb rack.
    P40-Es:  electric gunsights mounted in the cabin and bomb rack.

5.  The aircraft of the CATF/23FG and the 14AF would display the 5-pointed star of the USAAF on the wings.  Serial numbers on the tail would be the multi-digit numbers starting with building year (42, 43, 44, 45).  The shark-mouth insignia
remained with P-40, B-25 & B-24 a/c in the CBI for the duration of the war.

6.  The CATF P-40s sported a new Tiger insignia with a roaring Tiger wearing an Uncle Sam red & white striped top hat emerging through the CAF star with a shredded Japanese flag torn by the tiger claws.

I do not recall seeing ARMY on the wings of USAAF fighters in the CBI.  Some of the P-40 replicas are composite representations of fighter a/c in the CBI, marked to honor all the various a/c in that WWII theater.

Anyone else with info to add to the above?

Tripp


Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
Flying Tigers Association


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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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Markings question
mayor
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If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong
Here's a photo of the a/c I'm referring to.....belongs to the Fighter Factory.....supposed to be the markings of Tex Hill's a/c and the markings were approved by him.....

Board Image

Edited by mayor : May 6, 2014, 10:13 am
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Markings question
aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
OK, thanks.

No 50cals in the nose, no iron ring gunsight on the nose, 6 guns in the wings, bomb rack.  Definitely not a B-model.  Likely an E or N model. 

If this is supposed to be Tex's a/c then it would be an E-model with the Sqdn # of 108 (as seen in the John Shaw painting used for the cover of Tex's book).  It has the rondel of the Chinese Air Force on the wings.....thus the ARMY on the underside of the wing is curious.  Also, the a/c is in olive drab with no camouflage painting.  The underside of the wing is dark, unlike the AVG wings which were much lighter so as to blend with the sky (when viewed from below).

Truly, it's a beautiful P-40....great for airshows (with a yellow-tipped prop!) but this a/c is a close replica of an AVG Kittyhawk.

Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
Flying Tigers Association


Edited by aaatripp : May 6, 2014, 2:03 pm

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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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Markings question
BenL
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The P-40Es were received from the US Army and had the markings when delivered but they would have been painted out after the AVG took them over, any few photos of AVG P-40Es from that perspective show it to be removed.
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Markings question
aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
I believe that they were shipped as Lend-Lease supplies directly from the Curtiss-Wright factory in Buffalo, NY via the Port of New York to Accra, Gold Coast (Africa) where Tigers such as R.T. Smith ferried them over a route of 7,500 miles to Kunming, China.  It took them almost 3 weeks to complete the ferry assignment (Mar 2-22 '42).  (Source:  diary of R. T. Smith found in "Tale of a Tiger")

These aircraft were destined for the AVG/Chinese Air Force and likely had the 12-pointed star rondel of  the CAF on the wings.  These a/c would not have been received from the US Army.

Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
Flying Tigers Association


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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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Markings question
BenL
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They were lend-lease but they had Army Air Force markings when delivered to China as RT Smith's pictures will show including the outdated star with red circle.
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Markings question
aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
BenL-----thanks for the headsup on this one.

Tale of the Tiger by R.T. Smith details their ferry mission and contains photographs.
On page 235 is a shot of R.T. standing proudly next to his new P-40E Kittyhawk....
and there on the fuselage is the US roundel. 
On pp. 241 & 246 are inflight photos which show the US roundel on R.T.'s port wing and on the starboard side of the fuselage of #4.

I guess that Lend-Lease supplies also included used equipment (like the 50 WWI
destroyers that we "transferred" to Great Britain in 1940).

OK, I stand corrected!  Thanks, BenL, for the input.
Tripp


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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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Markings question
Lincoln
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Don't forget that when the AVG disbanded, some of the Pilots and ALL of the flyable aircraft went back to Army Control.  I remember reading somewhere about one of the P-40B/Cs still flying in 1943.
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Markings question
aaatripp
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cousin of Maax C. Hammer, Jr., AVG 22Sep41 RIP
Please note:  the P-40Bs were the Lend-Lease aircraft originally committed to the British (from a French order cancelled when France fell in spring '40).  They were shipped directly to the AVG, so they never were under Army control at the outset.  On the other hand the P-40E models originally had Army markings (thanks BenL); those would have been returned to Army control under the CATF, after the AVG disbanded on 4 July 42.

Tex Hill noted that some of the P-51B models that finally arrived in the CBI for use by the 14AF had serial #s of a/c which they had flown in training in Florida.
Again, the CBI was getting the castoffs of the USAAF.  Under the Germany First objectives of Allied strategy (US & England), this would have been consistent although no great comfort for the guys having to fight the Japanese in the CBI.

Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
Flying Tigers Association


Edited by aaatripp : May 25, 2014, 12:30 pm

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Tripp

Tripp Alyn, chair
Historical & Museums Committee
AVG Flying Tigers Association
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